Rocko62580

Good Morning:

I have a new home and new windows installed in 2006. After a four year battle trying to get my builder to fix my drafty windows, I have turned to the window manufacturer. The manufacturer came out last week and immediately noticed that my window sashes were 1/16-1/18 inch too small for my window frames. The manufacturer also informed me that my window frames were bowed. The rep said he would order new window sashes that are the correct size, that would actually fit my frame, and come back in a couple weeks. I was upset to learn today that their engineering-customer service department has denied this request, and instead has suggested that I use a large weather-strip to keep my windows airtight because the window sashes I have are discontinued. I can understand this idea, but this seems
to be a way to save costs vs. doing the right thing. The manufacturer also questioned if this is really their fault or just the builders fault for installing the bowed window frames improperly. Now it seems to be a blame game between builder and manufacturer. My question is, who would be at fault for incorrect sash sizes, the builder or manufacturer? I've attached a picture. Notice how the top part of the sash has a larger opening near the weatherstripping then the air tight bottom part of the sash.

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Konstruction

Welcome to homemodders,
The problem you have is not because of the sashes being incorrect sized to the window frame. This is something that I have never came across. But what you do have is poor installation. Hince the reason behind the refusal from the window manufacture. Windows aren't installed with frames, then sashes added in according to window size. The frames and windows are all in one. The walls are framed, squared, sheathed, then the windows are installed. In some cases where the jacks for the windows are not squared, skewing the windows and creating a gap from sash to frame. This is a builder issue and to correct this problem, the window needs to come out, the opening needs to be checked, and adjusted for correct spacing. Then everything be reinstalled. This would be a big job since this effects the siding, Sheetrock, trim, paint, ect. Most builders don't install the windows. It was most likely subbed out.

If the window frame is bowed, then it really falls back on the builder/installer.
1) the windows should have never been installed. If the frames were bowed.
2) the issue needs to be corrected by the builder. Since the manufacture doesn't take the fault in this situation.

Question - Is that a double or single hung window ?

Does the window open and close smoothly without and friction?

The picture you show, doesn't look like a big problem, can you get a better picture of your issue. At least I cannot pin point the problem.

Also I would like to add, the sashes being discontinued doesn't make sense, because any sash style would work. So I am asking you for the model name and number on your windows. I may be able to find out some info for ya through my supplier. If you can lower the top sash, you'll see a sticker on the window. Get the name of the windows and model numbers and size. I will be able to tell you if they are really discontinued or they are yanking your chain.

Rocko62580

Thank you for your thoughts. Attached are two more pictures. Pic 1 shows you a large gap between weatherstrip and frame. Pic 2 show a tight seal which is the case at the bottom of the windows. The gap appears to be toward the center of the window area. Also the manufacturer seems to be the only ones trying to resolve this, as I had complained to the builder during my one year warranty and they caulked the windows and said that this will fix the problem, now they don't answer calls, etc. The windows are double hung, and they open and close very well.

Also the manufacturer "Paradigm" stated that the "exterior color" of these said windows are discontinued, but they could find a replacement with a color that probably won't match. Number on window were Series 8311/8321, H-R30-44X60, H-R40-44X60 (Reinf)

Hope this helps, and thanks for letting me know how I should proceed getting this fixed.

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Konstruction

Well after some more thinking and examining the pictures. Also the supplier is closed today. So I wouldnt be able to find out about the windows until Monday.

But here is my 2 cents.

A) Going by what I see outside the window, this would be a townhouse, right? Those things are often slapped up quite quickly, with little regard for craftsmanship.

I actually repaired a window just like that last year in a townhouse. The nailing flange had exactly four nails in it--one at each corner. That allowed the frame to distort over time, so much in fact that on occasion a strong wind would literally blow the sash out of its seat.

Repair was simply a matter of pulling the siding off and nailing the flange properly. The client has been delighted with his reduced heating bill this winter.

Once again that is falling back on the builder.

Chances are, they used cheap vinyl windows and not a higher end vinyl window. That said, if they were to large for the opening and they were "squeezed in",

I would contact the builder....it's certainly not the manufacturer's fault unless of course they are passing the buck. Quite conceivably as well, the cheaper window could have warped.

You need to have an unbiased opinion.

Contact a local window installer and duke him 100 bucks or so for coming out and give you the real truth about the issue. So it eliminates of one person passing the blame.

B) The easiest way to troubleshoot this is to take three measurements to start. Measure the distance between the jambs, top, bottom and center. If the center measurement is wider, you have an issue with installation. The jambs should be parallel with each other at all locations. If they are not, you may be able to gain access to the jambs to shim the centers and get them straightened on the inside (by removing the casing). I have seen cases where the jambs are not shimmed during installation and over time, they will spread due to pressure exerted by the weatherstripping. You should also put a level on the outside of the jambs to check them for straight. If they are bowed, the only solution I know of is to remove the exterior finish to correct the problem. Just because the inside jambs are bowed, it doesn't necessarily mean they are on the outside.

If the jambs are straight, check the dimensions of the sashes, they should measure the same top and bottom in width and left and right in height. If the width measurements differ, it is a problem with manufacturing. In addition, if the weatherstripping doesn't seal at the fixed points of the assembly, at the jamb limits, top and bottom, the sashes were manufactured too narrow for the opening

This problem could be fixed by pulling off the interior casing, and putting a shim where your frame is bowing out. Most guys dont shim vinyl windows and then you end up with problems like this. Also when you pull off the casing, check for insulation.

Hope this helps.

Rocko62580

Thanks for your help. Here is the response to your questions:

"Going by what I see outside the window, this would be a townhouse, right? Those things are often slapped up quite quickly, with little regard for craftsmanship."

Correct. They are townhouses, which brings up another point how the window company rep indicated I would need replacement sashes, but once corporate learned that there are 58 other units that may also be defective they quickly tried to blame the builder, and backed off the idea of new window sashes and instead a thicker weatherstripping. They may have been scared about the costs associated with replacing 58 new townhouses.

"The easiest way to troubleshoot this is to take three measurements to start. Measure the distance between the jambs, top, bottom and center. If the center measurement is wider, you have an issue with installation. The jambs should be parallel with each other at all locations."

I assume this means measure from the beginning of window jamb to the other side of the jam horizontally? If this is correct, I measured the top bottom and center and they were all at 34 inches, right on.

"You should also put a level on the outside of the jambs to check them for straight."

I did this throughout both the sashes and the jambs, and everything is straight. Although the "bubble" in the level moved slightly when moving the level from the top of the jam to the bottom it stayed in the center area the entire time.

"If the jambs are straight, check the dimensions of the sashes, they should measure the same top and bottom in width and left and right in height. If the width measurements differ, it is a problem with manufacturing. In addition, if the weatherstripping doesn't seal at the fixed points of the assembly, at the jamb limits, top and bottom, the sashes were manufactured too narrow for the opening."

All the sash measurements are the same. The weatherstripping doesn't seal up at the top of the window, as shown in the picture I sent.

Your thoughts?

Konstruction

Man, this is getting funny. Not as in haha funny. But trying to figure it out kinda funny.

After talking to a friend of mine that used to work with Top side windows. He stated "that Paradigm is usually pretty good about replacing them. There is a 20 year unconditional warranty if I remember correctly."

Something isn't right. If the sashes are the same in width, the jambs aren't bowed and it's probably an installation issue. I have installed about 30 or so Paradigm windows and I never even had to tweak one. I am not a fan of any vinyl window but in my experience I've always had to push them into square when installing except for Paradigm. I attributed it to the thick wide vinyl jambs they built the unit out of.

After a few years of looking at moisture and mold problems over 60% of the windows were installed improperly - this was for custom homes. Lower priced windows are more likely to have problems, but installation is the key.

A window is just a hole in a wall with some glass, but proper installation is always necessary.

If the claim or lawsuit comes early enough, the GC is usually liable before the attorneys get involved. Some GCs will hire certified window installers instead of allowing their people to do the installation. But in your case, its been 4 years. And unless you can get the manufacture to go on record saying its their fault for a malfunctional window sash. Then youll most likely end up paying someone to replace the window. as well as the window cost.

I would try to shim the jamb over, remove the casing and adding shims, pushing the frame tight to the weather stripping. Should close the gap and just might get it done. If that doesnt work, then your gonna have to call a pro in to handle it. I would still fight for the manufacture fault. and get them to replace it.

Rocko62580

"Something isn't right. If the sashes are the same in width, the jambs aren't bowed and it's probably an installation issue."

You mean a manufacturer issue right?"

I was fooling around with this some more, and I noticed that I can actually "jiggle" the window sashes back and forth as they are not tight to the window jams. Also I forgot to tell you that I did have an independent window guy come out, and he said that it is the builders fault, but he didn't so any of the measurements and leveling you suggested. He just took a quick look at it.

Also your buddy is right, Paradigm SEEMS to be an excellent company, thus far. Here is the letter they sent me, when I called in to complain that they were no longer replacing my "defective" window sashes. It was very detailed, and they are actually sending out an entire team of engineers, sales, and installation team next week to investigate. Also the president of the company also sent me an email to see if I received the email from his customer service rep shown below. Here it is.

Thanks for dropping us a note so quickly, I am responding on Mr Robinov’s behalf and as a representative of the customer service sector of our business. Let me try to explain our position on this that &#^ may not have made clear in his discussions with you.
I discussed this at length with the engineering department upon receiving *&@#^'s first call to action and together we came up with this solution, thinking it would be the best option for you aesthetically and from a performance perspective. Allow me to explain.
There are two concerns that we have that are difficult to do anything about. The first is the painted finish on your windows. It is done with a process that was made obsolete within a year of it’s implementation. We changed our paint process to a more robust and effective method of painting. The finish would not match and we fear that you would be most unhappy with the look. The second issue is that of slightly bowed frames that *#&# has described as existing in your windows. This is impossible to fix without removing the windows from the opening. Something we are sure you do not want to do. This is really an installation issue that has nothing to do with the window proper.
So, all that being said, lets talk about the manufacturing process and the purpose of weather stripping. Paradigm manufactures windows to within a 1/16th of an inch tolerance. It is common to have windows that are 1/16” under or over in size as compared to the rough openings and each other. It sounds like *#^ is describing this to be the case with your windows. Weather stripping serves two purposes in the window. It provides a seal Between the frame and Sash components that is intended to limit air leakage to the greatest extent possible, and provides a non-binding barrier between the two vinyl components allowing them to glide freely and in this case operate freely when opening and closing the sashes.
The weather stripping is an essential component of the operable part of the window. It must be able to flex each time the window opens and return to its original shape each time it is closed. The quality of the weather stripping on a window is one of the main factors that distinguishes the quality of the window. We use the best weather stripping we can buy in our windows and subsequently realize some of the lowest attainable air infiltration ratings in the window in the industry. I can count on one hand the number of inquiries we have responded to over the years that relate to air infiltration. Now, I am not saying anything about your units as it sounds like you have an issue that is not related to the windows. The best weather stripping in the world will not fix an installation issue if there is one. Your windows and your weather stripping are covered by a lifetime warranty, something we are very proud of and work hard to manufacture windows worthy of such a warranty.
In instances that we have dealt with like this in the past, simply switching to a broader weather stripping material has solved the problem.
I assure you that we approach the integrity of our service with the highest degree of care and concern for your needs as a homeowner.
What we have proposed here is not a short cut, but more of a standard approach to solve the problem.
What I would suggest we do moving forward is two things. Let us provide you with a painted piece of sash material that represents the current paint finish. You can hold that up to your current exterior finish and determine if the difference bothers you aesthetically as compared to the existing windows. At the same time, lets have *#^ change out one window to a thicker/broader weather stripping and see if it makes a difference. Upon review of both options, we can move forward however you prefer us to. But those really are the only two options short of removing all the windows and re-installing them.
Sorry about the long email..but lots of detail.
Lets try to connect tomorrow when it is convenient for you. I can be reached at #&^$-(#*-#(@*extension #*&.
I Look forward to speaking with you.

Thanks
$*&@#^

briansol

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the window part of the structure, which in turn is 'owned' by the association? That's how it was at my condo i used to own. I owned everything in side, but the structure was HOA owned and insured.

Have you tried talking to the HOA leaders?

__________________
1997 2050sqft Split Level

Konstruction

By the sounds of that email, looks like they are going to get it fixed up for ya.

Konstruction

Any updates from the manufacture?